Posts by Yomat

    Quote

    Originally posted by joteo
    So for video editing, I have to look for screens whose requirements meet that for gaming?


    Well.. yes. Although games have even higher demands on response speed than video editing and watching does. Video editing I suppose have demands on image quality too, moreso than games.


    As for response speed in video editing I dont think IPS will be a problem. VA might be a problem for response speed. IPS might be a problem with image quality. But these 'might' statements all depend on your own perception.


    If you see and like a VA panel but you dont think the response speed is good enough, you might want to look into the new type of panels arriving at the market this year. Theyre called overdrive VA panels. They are VA panels with some technical updating trick to get 12 ms response time instead of the common 25 ms. Models are available from Eizo like L778 and L578. There is also a Samsung model 193P+ (or 194P in some places) that will be arriving soon. Other brands might also have them soon.


    Mind that a 25 ms IPS might have as good percieved moving image response time as another montior with alot faster response time.. something like 16 ms perhaps. So if you like the feeling of IPS it still might be a choice even if overdrive VA panels might sound like a superior option when you look purely technically at it.

    Hi Joanne.


    No guru writing here. Just another schmoo with limited budget that is searching for a good solution. Here are my opinions:


    When it comes to these things you must probably ask yourself what kind of person you are. For the majority almost any LCD monitor (with some exceptions) would be more than perfect for all tasks they might try!


    Since VA or IPS panels are that much better in every aspect but responstime I think you could exclude TN from your choices at least. If you then have the possiblity I think you should take a hands on look at a VA and a IPS panel. You will probably see right away which one you prefer when you examine the colors. VA is more colorful (some says gaudy and too much). IPS is more mellow and true (some says weak and washed out).


    The culprit is probably between your photo editing and the video editing. The IPS panel might have problems with darker images and dark areas in images that VA does better. VA might not be responsive and uniform enough to make some video-segment be shown correctly where IPS will do better.

    Hehe. I dont know if my opinions did qualify as an answer. You're welcome though.


    True. Finding feedback on it will be hard. I did read somewhere that the technology isnt completely new. The overdrive technology has been available in TFT TVs before. But monitor usage has other types of demands on them than TVs so its hard to do comparisons.


    Some people are more sensetive than others to ghosting. Me myself find it ok with 'blurring' if its uniform, a more natural fade kind of ghosting. But when ghosting becomes too much skeletal 'ghost'-like I dont like it. It gets annoying to scroll in text etc.


    I havent seen any L568 myself. I've seen similar panels. That is MVA panels with 25 ms response time. I didnt think they had much of a ghosting problem either. On the other hand I never tried them for an extensive time periods. Generally most gamers thinks a monitor like L568 is WAY too slow for playing games. Most reviewers find it OK to watch movies with.

    Yes. I thought about that too several times. The pixel size should affect the properties in many different ways. However for me it is simplified since 19" is the only option I have. I'm a very oldschool computer user and also an ergonomy fanatic that cant stand when text and icons gets too small. I need it BIG!

    Quote

    Originally posted by moti_r
    This is very interesting. I haven't heard such a thing.
    Can you give me some links about that?


    If this is indeed the case, then VA panels are out of the question. Most of my work is pure text (internet, office etc) - I am willing to sacrifise black levels, just to get perfect sharp text.


    You know, another thing that I really find weird is that I can see S-IPS panels with 16ms, but they are ONLY 20" and above. No 19" that has less than 25ms. I wonder why is that...


    No sorry. Havent found any hard evidence on the black on grey problem. Actually you should not be too alarmed because I got it from a thread in swedish where two people discussed the problem with the specific monitor Samsung 910T. It could be a problem that only occurs on that monitor or PVA. On the other hand the problem itself sounds like it could be a panel problem.


    Ah. The black levels. I was pondering if black levels would affect text sharpness. You would think that blacker text would be sharper.. but it might not be. Probably depends on other properties.. like how pixel-light bleeds over to neighbouring pixels etc.


    Those 20.1" panels are a newer manufacture by LG-Philips. I dont know if that is a factor but they have smaller pixel size than the usual 17" and 19" with a 1600x1200 resolution. Perhaps its easier to do faster displays with smaller pixels. In any case they cant use the same production line to make 'regular' 17" or 19" panels.


    Quote

    Originally posted by Rista
    On a positive side, yesterday I found some pictures on some french forum and the 1930B seemed to have virtually perfect backlight uniformity. Someone also posted a video of playing some FPS and it seems to handle games pretty well too. The viewing angles also looked very good but it's hard to tell that from a video clip.


    Hehe. Cewl! You wouldent have a link to that forum side? I wouldent understand any of the french but the pictures might be informative.


    And about your 915FT+: Its all a messy business when you cant see the stuff you are bying for yourself anymore. Dubious reviewers and manufacturers. Something that look bad might actually be very good. On the other hand the opposite might be true too. For instance I know that some manufacturers, not only monitor, do produce a good line of products in one batch and botch it in the next batch. I've had this personal experience with a Philips CRT monitor and a harddrive by Samsung. You also have the issue where reviewers get their review items directly from the companies, which of course could be a high quality handpicked item among a line with varied quality. Thus, if some product was good a year ago or you saw a good review you might get a total different thing even if you buy the exact same model.


    Usually you should be able to get around this quality problem by simply buying top of the line models from verified brands. However even that doesent seem to hold true anymore. Companies try to skimp even there sometimes.


    So what we are trying to achieve here is to make sure we get a good batch. Like you did with your 915FT+ and the guy in the french forum. However I have no way of making sure that one would. :) Which leads me back to square one.

    Rista:
    Read my opinions again please. The reason why the LG got so low score is because the test almost only cared about darkness levels. All monitors have flaws and the LG had a type of flaw that the testers cared very much about apparently. In another TomsHardware test perhaps the testers dont even see the dark scale problems and just care about motion speed. I find it totally stupid that they weighed darkness levels that heavily in the test. Text sharpness which the LG got good on they didnt merit at all.


    As for the colors ppl in here seem to like the 'trueness' of the IPS and not the gaudiness of the VA. Its all a matter of opinion though.


    I might add that in another test the LG got best buy verdict. That in another magazine in Sweden. Strangely enough it beat Lacie Photon19Vision. These guys liked the colors quite much. Even though they found the colors to be hard to calibrate correctly.


    moti_r:
    Lol. I'm leaning more and more toward IPS. The text sharpness verdict in the test was very important for me. I've seen some lose reports that VA panels can have text displaying problems if the foreground and background is set in a specific manner. For instance black text on grey background leaves a white shadow on some displays. I would not like that at all.
    Even so this new overdrive technology makes VA more interesting. The bad blackness levels on IPS could be a problem for me.. I dont know yet. VA panels would surely solve that. I wonder how the colorshift problem is on these overdrive panels. Ah well.. wait and see.. wait and see. This buying thing is terrible.

    Hmm. I didnt think about it being in german. Sorry. :) I thought it was in english. I can do some short translation from the short grades in the review. The short section has like several properties that can have grade from minuses -- to plusses ++.


    Picture stability: ++ (analog) / ++ (digital)
    Viewing angle: ++
    Contrast: ++
    Color spectrum: ++
    Subjective image impression: ++
    Greyscale resolution: ++
    Luminace disposition: ++ (A bit uncertain what they mean here)
    Resolution Interpolation: +
    Casing, mechanics: ++
    Manual, OSD: +/-
    usability casual gamer: ++
    usability hardcore gamer: +
    usability DVD/Video: ++



    Hehe. I think that should be it. Some german speaker please complain if there is a big problem here. Only reason I could do this quickly cause I know the vocabulary is common to us here. :P Had to use dict.leo.org for Luminacy thingy though.


    But please dont wait too long. Then you become like me and get stuck and cant make any choice at all. Thats not good either. :)

    To find a *good* one is rather hard. :P It has to fit ones need. Unfortunately there isnt a best one. Even if you spend alot of extra money you might get very good colors but low response time. Its hard to choose.


    The difference between your listed displays is that the latter, L578 one seems to be a 17" variant of the 19" overdrive Eizo L778 reviewed on this site. Its quite different from the L568 only when it comes to moving images. Static they should be about the same and for that quite good.


    I'd say the L578 could be the really *good* one. It costs more and it has the specs. The only 'but' is that it is a rather new type of technology. There might be a problem with it that hasnt been noticed yet. On the other hand its cool to be first too. You gonna break your friends like nothing with that monitor even if they have some 8 ms TN panel. Its going to be fast and still have rich colors and great viewing angle.

    Hmm. Not rectangular doesent sound that great. :) But even if IPS tech sounds messy VA isnt less messy it seems to me. Nevertheless, I think you have to experience this effect and then see you can see a pattern. I am sometimes working at a quite old highend 20" NEC LCD. I am pretty sure it must be IPS cause it has kind of violet hues when viewing at angles but still have amazing viewing angle for a 7 year old monitor. I cant see any patterns on this one at all. And you would think artifacts of this kind would be more common in older productions of a technology.

    Ok. Here we go. Now I have studied the article.


    First of all the article is directed toward strict office usage. That means they dont care anything about responsetimes and such. No movies nor games. Although they do put alot of weight on graphics usage, color reproduction and such things which isnt extremely common in office environments. This direction of the article will affect the verdicts accordingly.


    I took notice mostly on the models that are discussed in this forum and their properties.


    Eizo L768 and Samsung 920T scored 89% both. I could not find any reason why 920T was picked the winner. I am assuming it was the price factor.


    NEC LCD1970NX - 76%. (The model tested was 1970 not 1960 as previously stated)
    LG L1930B - 66% (second lowest but I discuss why)
    Philips 190B5CS (forgot to note the test score but I know that this one was runner up behind the two winners)


    However not much was said about 920T. The verdict of the monitor was something like "All monitors were good. 920T is the one with least flaws.". The L768 got top verdict on color reproduction and image quality and was premier choice for people who do photo work.


    Most interesting about the test (at least for me) is that they did a custom text sharpness test on all screens. What they did was load up some text with 6.2 pt Arial and test how far away they could move from the screen and still be able to read it. In this test the NEC and LG excelled and the rest was marginally behind. The Philips wasnt mentioned but I think it couldent have been that far off.


    No surprise all the MVA and especially the Samsung PVA did superbly on contrast and blackness tests. Although the article writer stated something about the Eizo that I interpreted as uneven backlight leakage.


    L1930B and why it scored so badly. Apparently it had serious dark scale problems and too much violet instead of black. It measured the second lowest luminance score where Samsung topped. This violet hue caused low score on viewing angle also somehow. Since the test final score weighs was almost only dependent on contrast and dark image quality, the L1930B got shot down easily. The NEC also had this dark quality problem but at a much lesser degree and even better was the Philips. This all verifies that LG makes less quality than the other brands with the same panel but it is also alot cheaper. You get what you pay for.


    All in order the writers opinion was firmly that the VA panels color reproduction was much 'better' than the others. And that the IPS panels was "a bit pale and weak". Although in this forum we all know that VA panels tend to exaggerate colors and IPS to be more true. So its not surprising that for a random tester perhaps photos will look better with gaudy colors.


    -------------


    Thats it! I know it didnt help much. I dont know why they didnt talk more about the winning monitor 920T. Maybe I missed it.. but I dont think so. I guess they thought 'best choice' said it all.

    All your questions are in a grey zone. :P We are all trying to figure them out more or less. So keep reading.


    As for overdrive technology you have a frontsite review here of the Eizo overdriver L788. Got good motion grades. Read for yourself.


    I dont see any problem with bying the 193P if it fits your needs. However the new model will probably be alot pricier.. and the old one will drop in price. If you are the type of person who beat yourself for a long time over such things I would suggest youd cancel.

    Hehe. I was a bit knocked of my socks for a week or so. But nickynick filled in good and actually answered a bit better than I would have. :P Colorshift is better if you dont really hate the violet hue which is common on IPS screens when viewing at angles.


    As for crystal effect I dont know at all. But from nickynicks description it would be the same thing you can see on CRTs with with low dot pitch when you look close. Gaps between holes that forms a pattern. Before that explanation I thought the crystal effect was the glittering effect you can see when examining the surface.. but I see some of that on all TFTs.. they are liquid _crystal_ displays after all.


    Hmm.. got a wondering. If the gaps are larger between pixels on IPS perhaps the pixels will be more distinct and sharper than the other displays? I suppose it would in the same reasoning be worse for interpolation resolution.


    As for TomsHarware: Almost all reviewers tend to read specs, then test and then write a specs-biased review.


    So you got the L1930B. I'm really looking forward to your text-sharpness impression from that monitor.

    Hey there. I want to forward my apologies. I got a bit swamped and sick on top of that so I havent been able to check out the review yet. I must be able to do it one of the following days.

    Ah. Good to meet another speaker-hater. :) You could look into NEC LCD1970NX, no speaker. It has the same LG-Philips S-IPS that comes in many formats. Thurough offsite review of that monitor:


    You could look into Lacie too. Photon19Vision. They put some effort into designing their stuff it seems to me. Perhaps you like that one.


    The crystal effect is probably just annoying for people who gets stuck on those things. For instance before I bought my first aperture grille CRT i read that ppl hated those wires that crosses the screen in two places. They never annoyed me one bit. However.. its different for everybody I guess. From the short times I have been using TFTs I think I get most annoyed by the colorshift and viewing angle limitations. S-IPS solves them problems it seems to me.. the only thing I'm a bit worried about S-IPS is sharpness and look of text. I have heard very little talk about text working properties of S-IPS panels.


    For me its like this:


    VA:
    + text sharpness
    + general static image quality
    + viewing angle
    - dynamic image
    - color shift


    TN:
    + text sharpness (at least the newer Viewsonic panels)
    + dynamic image? (fast but the blurring looks kind of strange on some panels. the blur is not uniform)
    - color shift
    - viewing angle


    S-IPS:
    ? text sharpness
    + dynamic image
    + color shift
    + viewing angle


    It should be obvious that I should get S-IPS from them stats but I weigh text sharpness much higher than the other specs. I have to be able to work with it for long periods and not tire my eyes and head.

    I'll check the review and post the details. No problemo. :)


    Hmm.. just to make sure: Its only LCD1960NXi that is S-IPS. NX is TN I think. On the other hand the newer LCD1970NX without the 'i' is a S-IPS. Also LCD1980NXi is S-IPS.


    On the other hand. If you like how the VP191b looks like, the one you saw was probably a VA panel. Perhaps you should look into them instead. When it comes to VA the 920T is probably a quite good choice right now. Mayhaps the Eizo L768 also. I will read the review and see why they picked 920T and not L768. It could be the price difference.

    Quote

    Originally posted by moti_r


    I am really getting tired of this 19" LCD search.
    I think I am going to push it faster.


    Yeah. I'm also tired of it. I'm thinking I'll just buy some random monitor and after some use then I will know what I really need and then buy that monitor and sell the other one second hand. Its really hard to know these things if you're not able to use them for some time.


    Quote


    I want to see the new Samsung 920T...


    Well.. a big magazine here in Sweden did win a big test this February. The selection of models is of course not what anybody on this forum would pick.. but nevertheless:


    Acer AL1921H
    Benq FP992
    Dell 1905FP
    Eizo Flexscan L768
    HP L1955
    Hyundai Imagequest Q19
    IBM Thinkvision L191P
    LG L1930B
    NEC Multisync LCD1960NX
    Neovo E-19
    Philips 190B5CS
    Prestigio P190T
    Samsung Syncmaster 920T
    Sony SDM-X93


    920T won this test. I havent been able to read more than the results of it but I might to get to read it next week. I can report back to you if you think it would help.
    I am myself a bit curious how the LG and Philips did in the test since I think both have the same S-IPS panel. As a sidenote I believe only the Samsung, Eizo, Dell are VA panels and the rest are TN.

    Unless you have time to wait for this new 'overdrive' MVA technology to settle I guess Tetsuo's advice is quite accurate. I want to, in addition to the 20" monitors, add that there are some faster 19" monitors out there with S-IPS: Eizo L797 and possibly NEC LCD1980SXi.


    My cents on the LG:
    I myself have closely been looking into L1930B.. it seems to fit my demands. My problem is that it is too cheap?! Sounds strange but there is the big problem with some ppl in this forum having bad experience with LG. Mind you that I havent been able to find any specific person having specific problems with the specific model L1930B (my german is a bit limited though, I might have misinterpreted). There is some talk about the previous LG S-ISP panel however. These problems can be traced to trying to cut corners on production quality. So I'm at the weird situation that I like the panel the look the specs etc on that monitor but I'm afraid that the production quality will cause problems with the purchase either right away or after some time of usage.


    You know that there are other options for that same S-IPS panel that the LG have in other monitors, right? Me myself dont like monitors with speakers on them so most of them fall short there. The rest of the candidates are bummed by low availability where I live.

    That would be ideal, yes, to have only digital input. However the bandwidth limit of DVI specs could perhaps be troublesome high resolution displays. They need higher bandwidth DVI2 that is backward compatible and or something to take care of it.


    There is also the issue with office and lowend machines using onboard gfx is also a problem.. they havent had DVI for a long time. Perhaps they are starting to get DVI nowadays?


    Wow. You knew the details of the politics. :) Although it still sucks when politicians that have a hard time affecting real issues goes ahead and do something stupid like that just because the public knowledge is so low in the matter. However it also makes me a bit worried. Do you think the prices will rise even more on DVI screens if it goes through? Perhaps I will have to buy something soon.

    I agree with you both. GTG specifications is as useless as the other spec if they dont tell how its done. So its just another bogus number. I saw on Eizo's homepage that they specify a bit more than just the timings: "Average response time measured between each grayscale level of 31, 63, 95, 127, 159, 191, and 223." Is that ISO?
    Eizo is probably doing it better but still kind of weak. Ideally every monitor should have like 3 graphs showing characteristics instead of one number. That would be much better and it will also never happen. :)