Beiträge von traveller

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Davidhs
    I don't understand his point...


    I don't blame you because that paragraph you quoted, located in the Intro section of the review, is simply a case of a "copy-n-paste" typo... .


    The S2231W is NOT a TN panel, and one of very few 22" non-TN panels currently available on the market (it's an S-PVA panel, known for it's blacker blacks, among other positive characteristics).


    It's great for Digital-Imaging work but buyer beware, make sure you carefully read my comments regarding the wide-gamut "side effects"!


    If you use VISTA and Firefox (or Safari) Internet Browser, chances are the wide-gamut and associated over-saturated colors will not be an issue. Otherwise, you will have to make your own decision if a wide-gamut monitor is the way to go...

    Zitat

    Originally posted by thomo
    Sure you can.
    As you already have the spyder you could buy the software "basiccolor display4"... one of the best calibration softwares...


    Hi,


    thanks for the feedback as well as the excellent tip on the calibration SW which I'll definately check out :)


    Danke sehr (ich muss etwas auf Deutsch schreiben, sonst werdern die Admins veraergert sein ;)

    Zitat

    Originally posted by traveller
    Also, darf ich der helligkeit vorher aendern ohne das die Kalibrierung Werten falsch raus kommen...?]


    Jemand, bitte...?

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    Vista hat Farbmanagement, oder??
    Ich verstehs aber trotzdem nicht ganz: sRGB sollen ja in XP angeblich richtig angezeigt werden.


    Vista ist auf mein Notebook installiert und werde ich heute abend / morgen dieses Browser-test website ausprobiern (aber das ist nur ein test fuer den IE Browser.)
    XP ist nicht "color aware" und das heisst das es selber nutzt der color profile nicht (und das ist kaum zum verstehen, aber scheint so zu sein...). Also wann XP arbeitet mit ein sRGB bilder, XP nimmt an das der Monitor arbeitet auch in sRGB farbraum... thus the reason for the visible color saturation.


    Was ueberrascht mich sogar mehr ist wieso, nach mein Spyder2Express hat tatsaelich die Graka's LUT programmiert, sind die sRGB farben immer noch falsh... that is the real question! Auf mein Englisch thread, habe ich was von Colorvision notiert, also ich weiss es ist nicht mein versehen.



    EDIT: Here's a couple of interesting sites, the first is a Wiki entry on Windows Color System (WCS, VISTA only) and an excellent test to find out which applications use embedded color profiles and if VISTA'S doing the right job.

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    Damit sollte es wohl laufen??


    Habe ich teilweise durch gelesen und na ja, funktioniert teilweise:


    Windows Umgebung:
    sRGB mit Profile, OK
    sRGB ohne, Nicht OK
    aRGB mit/ohne, OK
    Das ist aber zu erwarten wenn mann der aRGB ICM mit sRGB ICM tauschen...


    Internet Explorer:
    sRGB mit/ohne, Nicht OK
    aRGB mit/ohne, OK
    Das ist mir weniger klar...


    So war Seine erfarungen, aber Ich bin noch nicht ganz bereit. Sondern, habe ich Firefox 3.0 Beta 4 installiert (und, durch "locale" Intranet address about:config, der Firefox parameter gfx.color_management.enabled auf TRUE gesetzt).


    Jezt habe ich mindenstens richtige farbe fur Internet! Ich vollte sowieso immer Firefox mal ausprobiern, und dieses wide gamut thema war ein super grund dafur :D

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Dani50
    Is S-ISP standard-gamut? and do I need to make sure it has LUT?Dani


    A wide-gamut monitor uses special CCFL lamps or LED backlighting technology. There is no change in the actual Liquid Crystal technology (afaik), directly related to gamut and only contrast and/or viewing angles, etc. The trademarks "H-IPS" and "AS-IPS" etc. represent the combination of IPS and wide-gamut backlighting.


    Having said that, it may very well be that some manufacturer will offer an S-IPS panel with wide-gamut backlighting, so make sure to read the full specs of the monitor(s) you are interested in.


    Btw, maybe you should have a look at the following sites for a little more in-depth background on the variuous LCD tehnologies on the market today:


    LCD Resource and the "originating" thread over at AnandTech's


    TFT Central (UK)


    Last but not least, I consider Xbit Labs as one of the better sites reviewing Display Technology along with PRAD and BEHardware.


    p.s. I'm fairly certain that all monitors have an internal LUT, just that it is 8-bit (or even 6-bit for certain cheaper TN panels...) and I cannot honestly answer your question as my own knowledge of the benefits of 10, 12-bit "internal" processing is still unclear to me...


    EDIT: Here's a very good (but unverified) summary of the backlight's role in Gamut from the LCD Resource Thread (new version):


    "...the range of colors an LCD can display is directly dependent on how pure the color components are. Typical backlights produce a white that yields 72% coverage of the NTSC color space standard. Newer backlights use different phosphors that can effectively cover 92-97% of the NTSC space. LED backlights, which are not yet very common in LCDs, can cover up to 114% of the same color space."

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    was ich gerade gefunden habe: kennt jemand das:

    müsste in Verbindung mit diesem Farbprofil:

    das Problem lösen, oder??


    Das ist alles sehr interessent und das muss ich weiter forschen, danke fuer den tip :D
    Ich hoffe nur das Microsoft's ICM und Adobe's CMM kann tatsaechlich zusammen arbeiten...


    Na ja, it's definately worth a try, as long as it can be uninstalled if there's any conflicts...

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    Soll das also heißen, dass der Bildschirm mehr Farben kann, aber der Computer kann das gar nicht liefern, auch mit angepassten Programmen nicht?


    Ich habe es anders verstanden: ohne 10bit path kann man nicht mehere farben liefern, sondern, nur anderen.


    Aber das ich bin uberhaupt kein expert (und hoffe das Andi korrigiert mich bald... ?( ) - bitte warten auf einen expert antwort vor Du dein monitor zuruck schickst... :O :P

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    Nur kostet der Bildschirm halt weit mehr.... da bekommt man schon fast 3x2231 um dieses Geld.


    Danke & stimmt, was Du sagst (read: S2231W is "only" a mainstream, €550 monitor.... 8o)

    Zitat

    Originally posted by alphacma
    "...Wenn sie eine bessere Helligkeitsverteilung wünschen, so müssten sie ein Modell mit DUE Unterstützung erwerben."


    Was genau ist / heisst DUE...?



    Edit: DUE = Digital Uniformity Equalizer


    "Product innovations include Digital Uniformity Equalizer (DUE), which enables compensation for luminance non-uniformity. Due to unique characteristics of the backlight and liquid crystals, the luminance of LCD monitors is uneven across the image display, and luminance distribution varies from monitor to monitor. To compensate for these inconsistencies, the luminance level of each monitor is measured at EIZO’s factories in Japan and then DUE adjusts the luminance according to the measured data. This unifies any luminance discrepancy in the image display and between monitors in a multi-panel environment. Additionally, luminance uniformity is an important factor within quality control standards and guidelines, such as AAPM, DIN, JESRA and IEC for monitors used in diagnostic imaging."

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    ...Photoshop 7 ... XP, oder Vista ... Firefox ... 3er-Version ...


    YES-NO-YES.
    Microsoft is happy with sRGB, also ich erwarte kein unterstutzung bald... ausserhalb jede Monitor firma verkauft wide-gamut in der Zunkuft weil jeder Kunden ist blöt genug es zu kaufen (meaning us... :O)


    Wieso sage ich das? Taken from Outbackphoto's forums, c/o Karl Lang:


    "1) A wide gamut LCD display is not a good thing for most (95%) of high
    end users.
    The data that leaves your graphic card and travels over the
    DVI cable is 8 bit per component. You can't change this. The OS, ICC
    CMMs, the graphic card, the DVI spec, and Photoshop will all have to be
    upgraded before this will change and that's going to take a while. What
    does this mean to you? It means that when you send RGB data to a wide
    gamut display the colorimetric distance between any two colors is much
    larger
    . As an example, lets say you have two adjacent color patches one
    is 230,240,200 and the patch next to it is 230,241,200. On a standard
    LCD or CRT those two colors may be around .8 Delta E apart. On an Adobe
    RGB display those colors might be 2 Delta E apart on an ECI RGB display
    this could be as high as 4 delta E.


    It's very nice to be able to display all kinds of saturated colors you
    may never use in your photographs, however if the smallest visible
    adjustment you can make to a skin tone is 4 delta E you will become
    very frustrated very quickly.


    2) More bits in the display does not fix this problem. 10 bit LUTs, 14
    Bit 3D LUTs, 10 bit column drivers, time-domain bits, none of these
    technologies will solve problem 1. Until the path from photoshop to the
    pixel is at least 10 bits the whole way, I advise sticking to a display
    with something close to ColorMatch or sRGB.


    3) Unless the display has "TRUE 10 bit or greater 1D LUTs that are
    8-10-10"
    user front panel controls for color temp, blacklevel and gamma
    are useless for calibration and can in fact make things worse. An
    8-10-8 3D LUT will not hurt things and can help achieve a fixed
    contrast ratio which is a good thing.


    Only Mitsubishi/NEC displays with "GammaComp" have 8-10-8 3D LUTs at
    this time*. Some Samsung displays may have this I don't test many of
    their panels as the performance in other areas has been lacking.


    Only the Eizo 210, 220 and NEC2180WG have 8-10-10 paths. If you really
    want to know... the path in the Eizo is "8-14bit3D-8-10bit1D-10" go
    figure that one out ;) The 2180WG has an actual 10 bit DVI interface
    with a 10-10-10 path but nothing supports it so you can't use it yet -
    but for $6500 your ready when it does ;-)"


    *Jan. 2006, so I'm sure there are more in the meantime, but I really, really doubt our S2231Ws fall under this category...

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Dani50
    ...you advise against it because it is wide-gamut. This monitor would seem to have better colour unifirmity across the screen but I don't need an extended colour range...


    Well, it wasn't my intention to confuse you but I got confused myself. However, your statement above clarifies things (I hope).


    You want a monitor that can accurately render colors defined by the sRGB colorspace without depending on color-aware applications.


    When I calibrate a monitor, it creates a color profile that applications like Photoshop use, but also loads a "profile" directly into the Graphic card's LUT (color lookup table). So, I believe that it should be possible to benefit from a calibrated monitor even without the use of color-aware applications.


    BUT, this theory of mine only applies to non wide-gamut monitors... . So, just like I mentioned in the other thread, you don't want a wide-gamut monitor. Such a monitor does not necessairly bring you "better color uniformity", it only brings you different colors... .


    Last but not least, don't bother looking for a prefectly factory-calibrated monitor because it probably doesn't exist. some monitors fare better during a review right out of the factory then others, but that's still not a guarantee that your unit will have the same exact "out of the box" accuaracy.



    p.s. Don't confuse IPS LCD technology with wide-gamut. My original post above was to reinforce IPS as the correct technology for your needs, not the fact that the LCD2690 has wide-gamut capability...!

    Zitat

    Originally posted by travellerMan solttet NIE "per Saugnapf" ein TFT Beruehren!


    Das bleibt meine persoenliche meinung, aber muss ich auch sagen das der Firma meint es ist ok. Vieleicht beim Spyder3 ist es anderers als beim Spyder2:

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowseranscheinend solls bei diversen Geforce-Karten (7er und 8er reihe) ein DVI-Ansteuerungsproblem bei Breitbild geben...


    Waaas... wirklich war? Na dan habe ich glueck gehabt mit beide meine 7900GT und 8800GT 512MB zusammen mit mein FP241W... Das mit mindenstens 15 verschiedene driver releases... .


    Anyways, viel glueck und bitte be sure to report back if & when you've solved your issue =)


    p.s. Please give to (& don't just take from) the forum! Why don't you post a link to this "anderen Forum" so that anyone with similar problems as you can also find some help... ;)

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Dani50The monitor I would like is wide-gamut but I don't use colour-managed softeware very often.


    I'm not sure that your question is directly related to the S2231W but anyways, don't buy a wide gamut monitor if you don't use color-aware applications as it will bring you absolutely no advantage.


    Worse, you will be unhappy with the over-saturated colors when browsing, watching a DVD (or TV), etc. Sure, you can compensate for the overly-saturated reds & greens, but then what's the point?


    I bought the S2231W primarily for digital imaging work, with the hope of printing more accurately-rendered images. The theory is that with an almost-aRGB monitor one should have an easier time working in an aRGB color space and have more CMYK-friendly colors to work with... .


    Unfortunately I haven't managed to make it that far but I'm working on it... :p

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    ...das Bild ist extrem unscharf ... Für Fotobearbeitung absolut unbrauchbar ... Auf vielen Webseiten ... sind die Bilder richtig matschig, also nicht nur unscharf, sondern auch sehr detaillos..., wie wenn die 3/4 Bildimformation fehlen würde .
    ... Habe gelesen, dass es auch an der 8800GTS liegen kann???


    Ich habe kein problem mit mein S2231W und PRAD (read: Andi) auch nicht. Das der Pixel Pitch von einer 22", 1680x1050 wird sicherlich anders ist schon klar, aber beim bilder uberhaupt kein thema (imho).


    Zwichen der möglichkeiten von Monitor / Graka fehler und Einstellungs problem, wird ich mein geld beim die lezte. Ich habe ein 6800GT, nutze ich WHQL 169.21 treiber, auch mit HQ settings (aber sonst keine besondere einstellungen). Habe ich der Monitor (via analog) auch auf meine nVidia 8400M GS equipped Notebook probiert, und der ist auch ganz ok.


    Last but not least, nicht vergessen das beim Interpolation, Eizo wird den bild automatisch (by default) vergrossern bis der shirm is voll (streching included...). Therefore, please double-check that your resolution is set to 1680x1050 (and color depth to 32bits).


    Wenn meine ratschlaege bringt nichts, bitte ein foto von dein S2231W mit offene Pshop fenster. Hier findest Du ein paar bilder von meiner...

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Bowser
    ...Fotosammlung durchgesehen, die Rottöne und die Grüntüne ... lassen die bilder völlig unnatürlich wirken und sind zum Bildbearbeiten völlig ungeeignet....


    Hi & welcome to the world of wide-gamut monitors... ?(


    Man muss unbedingt mit "color-aware" Anwendungen Bilder beararbeiten. Das heisst mit Photoshop (od. Elements od. Canon Zoombrowser od. anderer solche anwendungen) wird Bildern wieder richtig dargestellet. Gibts auch color-aware Internet Browsers wie Apple's Safari (Ja, lauft auch auf PC platform) etc.


    Calibration hilft auch und muss nicht unbedingt sau-teuer sein, wie, z.B., Colovision's Sypder2Express. Nur solche gunstiger Calibration packages (package = colorimeter & SW...!) sind auf sRGB begrenzt, was fuer ein wide-gamut monitor nicht optimal ist. Das wegen, uberlege ich mir der Spyder 3 Elite...


    Aber, calibration nimmt die "Grell" farbe nicht weg: da fur muss man mit color-aware Anwendung arbeiten.


    Aber, look at the bright side: Bowser and all of Mario's friends never looked so good... :D

    Zitat

    Originally posted by michido
    ...die etwas verbesserte Weißbild Homogenität habe ich mir mit einem relativ lausigen Schwarzbild erkauft! 8o Nu`siehts in etwa so aus wie bei traveller.


    Welcome to the club ;)


    Na ja, wie ich habe vorher gesagt: 60% (od. weniger) Helliegkeit und presto - shazam, ist der X kein thema mehr 8)


    Aber im ende effekt, Du bist doch mehr Zufireden mit der neuer, gel, und das freut uns alles :D