Help me choose between Samsung 193P and LG L1930B

    Alright, I've narrowed my choices down to those two monitors. I've tried some LCDs with TN panels and while they were very nice, I couldn't stand the poor viewing angles. Since TN panels are not a choice anymore I'm planning to keep the CRT for games only. Now, I would like to know if the 193P's picture quality is enough superior to L1930B's to justify it's poor response time? I mean, if I'm already keeping the CRT for games it would be best to get a LCD with the best picture quality possible.


    Basically I want to know are 25ms IPS panels good for any games at all? If it's response time is still too slow for anything then I would rather get the Samsung with wider viewing angles and better contrast. It would be VERY nice if the 1930B could be fast enough for slower paced FPSs so that I don't have to hook up my CRT any time I want to play games. If the difference in ghosting between the two is not that great, then the 193P would be a better choice, right? I don't speak german so I don't know what people are saying in the reviews section of the forum so I was wondering if anyone could tell me what's the popular opinion on 25ms IPS panels and gaming? I know it's very subjective but I'm interested in how well those panels perform from a perspective of someone who finds 12ms TN panels perfectly adequate for gaming. Many people have said the Samsung 172X still ghosts alot but I played my favorite game Operation Flashpoint on it and it was great response time wise. Thanks.

    Zitat

    Original von Rista
    [..] so I was wondering if anyone could tell me what's the popular opinion on 25ms IPS panels and gaming?


    long story short: 25 ms IPS works like a charm!
    Maybe you wanna reconsider if the the two models you picked would be the right choice given their relatively high price in the 19 inch area.
    You could save a few extra bucks, go for a 20 inch model and at the same time abandon you last doubts about gaming capabilities since newer S-IPS panels in the 20 inch area all come with a 16 ms response time.


    Where are you from btw?

    Unless you have time to wait for this new 'overdrive' MVA technology to settle I guess Tetsuo's advice is quite accurate. I want to, in addition to the 20" monitors, add that there are some faster 19" monitors out there with S-IPS: Eizo L797 and possibly NEC LCD1980SXi.


    My cents on the LG:
    I myself have closely been looking into L1930B.. it seems to fit my demands. My problem is that it is too cheap?! Sounds strange but there is the big problem with some ppl in this forum having bad experience with LG. Mind you that I havent been able to find any specific person having specific problems with the specific model L1930B (my german is a bit limited though, I might have misinterpreted). There is some talk about the previous LG S-ISP panel however. These problems can be traced to trying to cut corners on production quality. So I'm at the weird situation that I like the panel the look the specs etc on that monitor but I'm afraid that the production quality will cause problems with the purchase either right away or after some time of usage.


    You know that there are other options for that same S-IPS panel that the LG have in other monitors, right? Me myself dont like monitors with speakers on them so most of them fall short there. The rest of the candidates are bummed by low availability where I live.

    Zitat

    Originally posted by tetsuo


    long story short: 25 ms IPS works like a charm!
    Maybe you wanna reconsider if the the two models you picked would be the right choice given their relatively high price in the 19 inch area.
    You could save a few extra bucks, go for a 20 inch model and at the same time abandon you last doubts about gaming capabilities since newer S-IPS panels in the 20 inch area all come with a 16 ms response time.


    Where are you from btw?


    I'm from Zagreb, Croatia and 20" LCD monitors here cost an arm and a leg so unfortunetaly that's not an option :( Why don't they make 16ms 19" IPS panels is beyond me. Many people would be happy to buy one if they can't afford a 20" LCD or simply don't need one. I'm aware that those two monitors are relatively expensive but I'm willing to pay that much if either of them suits my needs.

    Zitat

    Originally posted by Yomat
    Unless you have time to wait for this new 'overdrive' MVA technology to settle I guess Tetsuo's advice is quite accurate. I want to, in addition to the 20" monitors, add that there are some faster 19" monitors out there with S-IPS: Eizo L797 and possibly NEC LCD1980SXi.


    My cents on the LG:
    I myself have closely been looking into L1930B.. it seems to fit my demands. My problem is that it is too cheap?! Sounds strange but there is the big problem with some ppl in this forum having bad experience with LG. Mind you that I havent been able to find any specific person having specific problems with the specific model L1930B (my german is a bit limited though, I might have misinterpreted). There is some talk about the previous LG S-ISP panel however. These problems can be traced to trying to cut corners on production quality. So I'm at the weird situation that I like the panel the look the specs etc on that monitor but I'm afraid that the production quality will cause problems with the purchase either right away or after some time of usage.


    You know that there are other options for that same S-IPS panel that the LG have in other monitors, right? Me myself dont like monitors with speakers on them so most of them fall short there. The rest of the candidates are bummed by low availability where I live.


    I have heard about some problems with LG and their production quality but it seems it's nowhere near as bad as say Dell. Every forum I go to I see people complaining about backlight leakage and other issues on their 2001FP and 2005FPW that are result of a poor production quality. I'm willing to take a risk with the LG if the panel is really good as people say it is. I do know there are other monitors with the same panel but I find the looks to be rather important. This may sound shallow but it's not like I'm buying the LCD just for the looks. It's just that it's very important to me to like it's external looks and most other 19" IPS monitors look ugly to me. NEC LCD1980SXi is a perfect example. I can't stand how it looks like. Do you know of any other 19" LCDs by other companies like Xerox that use the same or similar IPS panel and have a good design? I know that is subjective but by good design I mean models like Samsung 193P, LG 1920B and 1930B, Xerox XA7-19i etc?

    How do you like the design of the Iiyama E481S ? It comes in black, silver, white and has a 25ms IPS panel. Additionally, it's a lot cheaper!

    The E481S has built in speakers, right? It looks OK but I don't want to have integrated speakers in my monitor plus the 1930B still looks much better. Like I said, I don't mind paying more for a better designed monitor. The only thing that worries me now is the crystal effect that people are talking about. What does it look like? Do all IPS panels have it?


    Man, this sucks. There's so many things to think about before making the decision. If only the 193P was a little faster I would get it right away. It seems that the ghosting is the only thing that holds it from being the best 19" LCD.

    Ah. Good to meet another speaker-hater. :) You could look into NEC LCD1970NX, no speaker. It has the same LG-Philips S-IPS that comes in many formats. Thurough offsite review of that monitor:


    You could look into Lacie too. Photon19Vision. They put some effort into designing their stuff it seems to me. Perhaps you like that one.


    The crystal effect is probably just annoying for people who gets stuck on those things. For instance before I bought my first aperture grille CRT i read that ppl hated those wires that crosses the screen in two places. They never annoyed me one bit. However.. its different for everybody I guess. From the short times I have been using TFTs I think I get most annoyed by the colorshift and viewing angle limitations. S-IPS solves them problems it seems to me.. the only thing I'm a bit worried about S-IPS is sharpness and look of text. I have heard very little talk about text working properties of S-IPS panels.


    For me its like this:


    VA:
    + text sharpness
    + general static image quality
    + viewing angle
    - dynamic image
    - color shift


    TN:
    + text sharpness (at least the newer Viewsonic panels)
    + dynamic image? (fast but the blurring looks kind of strange on some panels. the blur is not uniform)
    - color shift
    - viewing angle


    S-IPS:
    ? text sharpness
    + dynamic image
    + color shift
    + viewing angle


    It should be obvious that I should get S-IPS from them stats but I weigh text sharpness much higher than the other specs. I have to be able to work with it for long periods and not tire my eyes and head.

    The text sharpness is very important to me as well. Is there any reason for IPS panels to have worse text sharpness than other technologies? I'm curious what does the crystal effect look like. Is there a picture of it somewhere (if it can be captured by a camera)? Also, what exactly do you mean by colorshift being a bad thing about VA panels?


    Now, in that 1970NX review, I've seen the actual response time of the 25ms IPS panel. Do you know of any site that reviewed the Samsung 193P and measured it's response time? Thanks.

    Hmmm, so I went to the store and checked out some LCDs including the 193P. It's an excellent monitor but one thing shocked me. It's viewing angles aren't that great! This is a PVA panel, how is this possible? I mean, you can see everything on the screen from the most extreme angles but even when you look at the screen from small angle off center you can see colors changing. Is this the colorshift effect you were talking about? If so, do the IPS panels have the same problem? I was avoiding TN panels because of their poor viewing angles and that was the biggest reason I started considering VA and IPS screens. It's true that the top of the screen of TN panels looks darker than the bottom which is not the case with the 193P but still... If that was the colorshift effect you were talking about then I'm 100% certain I'll get a monitor with an IPS panel (if those don't have the same problem, of course). So, I don't need the actual viewing angles to be very wide, I just want colors to look even across the whole screen when I sit directly in front of the monitor. Also, I could see ghosting on the Samsung but it wouldn't bother me that much so I think a 25ms IPS would be even better which is perfectly fine for me. Now I just need a clarification on the colorshift problem on IPS panels and I'm ready for shopping :) Unfortunetaly, there was no IPS panels in the store so I couldn't test one.

    Rista, this is indeed the color shift you are noticing. All TFT technologies exhibit some degree of color shift with increasing viewing angle. TN panels are the weakest performers in this respect, VA has less color shift and IPS has the list color shift. This is the reason why all hardware calibratable TFTs for color critical graphical work have IPS panels. Mind you, the IPS panels still have some color shift but it only becomes visible at wider angles than it is the case on VA panels.


    The advantage of VA panels over IPS panels is that large areas of the same color look more homogenous on a VA panel. The reason for this is related to the technology being used. Each subpixel in an IPS panel requires an electrode on the front glass plate. This electrode blocks a small part of the light. As a result, the black gaps between the pixels and subpixels are a bit larger in IPS panels than in VA panels. All these small gaps may cause an inteference or moire pattern, I believe this is what some people observe as a crystal effect. Some eyes are more sensitive to it than others; the closer you sit to the screen, the higher the chance you will notice it.


    So its a bit like choosing between cholera and the plague :)


    As a final note, if you want to go the IPS route, the Eizo L797 is for sure the best choice if you can afford it. This monitor uses an IPS panel from NEC LCD which is the most advanced IPS panel on the market. It has the least crystal effect (I guess they succeeded in reducing the gaps between pixels). All other 19" TFTs with an IPS panel (Lacie PhotonIIVision, IiyamaE481, NEC 1970NX-1980SXi) use the panel made by LG.Philips which is in fact very good but just not as good as the panel in the L797.

    Thanks for your response. So basically, IPS will actually have better picture at smaller angles than VA panels do eventhough VA panels have better viewing angles on paper? Now I have to choose between color shift and ghosting on VA panels and the crystal effect on IPS panels. Biggest problem is that I have no idea how the crystal effect looks like and how noticeable is it. If it wasn't that noticeable I would get the IPS (LG L1930B most likely). If it's really bad then I guess would get the Samsung. Unfortunetaly, the Eizo L797 is not available here where I live and I'm sure it would cost a fortune if it was so I'm stuck between those two :(


    At times, I wonder if I should just get a TN panel. It does have a color shift but it's alot cheaper, has no problems with crystal effect, is just as fast as CRT (for my needs) and the newer models have a really good color reproduction and contrast ratio.

    On paper the viewing angles for IPS or VA are the same (170 or 176 or 178). Basically, when you look at the same angle at both an IPS and VA, the IPS will have less color shift. As for the crystal effect, it is really not that bad, otherwise no one would buy IPS anymore. Most people don't even notice it or will only notice that "something" is different when they see a VA next to an IPS. It depends a bit on how sensitive your eyes are for this effect. Personally I find the ghosting that appears on VA panels while scrolling much more disturbing. And the color shift on TN panels is even much more disturbing. As you noted the top part of a TN looks darker than the bottom even if you sit straight in front of the monitor. This is because you view the top and the bottom at a slightly different angle and this already introduces color shift. Still, many people get used to this...

    I have heard that all IPS panels made by LG Philips have the crystal effect problem. That would mean that very popular monitors like the 2001FP and 2005FPW also suffer from that but I don't remember anyone ever complaining about it. In fact, if it wasn't for this forum, I would never even know the crystal effect exists as this is the only place that I've heard about it. I've seen alot of complains from the Dell users about the screendoor effect though but I was told that is not the same as the crystal effect. I think I'm gonna go with IPS. I could live with the color shift of VA panels but I couldn't live with both, the color shift AND ghosting if there's a technology that's better at both and even costs less. I find myself overanalyzing everything so I should probably just say the hell with it, get the LG and hope the crystal effect doesn't bother me.


    BTW, why does Tomshardware speak so badly about IPS panels in terms of gaming? Most people on forums I visit say that IPS panels are very good and much better than PVA for gaming and yet Tomshardware in their 2001FP review said it was too slow and that games were unplayable? I think they rated the 2001FP 2/5 for gaming and the 193P 4/5. I've seen the 193P in action and like I said, it does ghost but it wouldn't bother me too much but I highly doubt that 16ms IPS panels are worse than that.

    Zitat

    Original von Rista
    BTW, why does Tomshardware speak so badly about IPS panels in terms of gaming? Most people on forums I visit say that IPS panels are very good and much better than PVA for gaming and yet Tomshardware in their 2001FP review said it was too slow and that games were unplayable? I think they rated the 2001FP 2/5 for gaming and the 193P 4/5.


    Tomshardware, in my opinion, is not be taken too seriously. It's alright for catching up on some GPU benchmarks for example, but the accuracy of their investigation in reviews and articles (not only in terms of monitors) generally seems to be highly disputed among most hardware enthusiasts I met.

    Zitat

    Originally posted by tetsuo


    Tomshardware, in my opinion, is not be taken too seriously. It's alright for catching up on some GPU benchmarks for example, but the accuracy of their investigation in reviews and articles (not only in terms of monitors) generally seems to be highly disputed among most hardware enthusiasts I met.


    Yeah, that's what I thought. I knew IPS panels couldn't be that slow as Tomshardware are saying.

    Bleh, I'm weak. I was ready to order the damn thing when I found someone on another forum saying the crystal effect looks downright terrible. What bothers me is that I have no idea what it looks like so I don't know what to expect. If it turns out to be really bad, I'm stuck with that monitor as I can't return it for no reason. I thought the crystal effect was something you don't notice all the time but only at certain solid colors. I guess I was wrong since some people say they can't focus on the screen because of that. Ahh, I'm overanalyzing everything again.


    It's just that I was really looking forward to replacing this CRT with a nice LCD screen and now after hearing about all those problems that desire has gone away. Although I hate my CRT at least there is no stupid crystal effect or color shift problems. Who would have thought it would be THIS hard to pick an LCD that is even not meant for gaming??

    So I took the plunge and ordered the L1930B. Thanks to everyone who contributed. I'll have to wait about 7-10 days but when I receive my monitor I will write a review in case anyone's interested :)

    Yes, keep us informed on how your monitor is doing. Don't worry too much about the crystal effect, the majority of the people have no problem with, so chances are you will be very happy with your new monitor :)